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Posted by SteveM on 15th December 2011 at 01:17 PM How not to run an elected mayor campaign
Originally published at http://stevemiddleton.info by Steve Middleton, Salford Liberal Democrats (Langworthy ward)
If you're politically naive, then it's generally not a good idea to accept a public debate challenge from two veterans of local politics - but that's exactly what Geoffrey Berg (Salford's elected mayor petition organiser) did last night.
I've written extensively on my blog about the elected mayor referendum that was forced by Mr Berg and his English Democrat sidekicks but as Salford approached the actual referendum date (and following some active letter writing for both the "YES" and "NO" campaign in the local paper), Councillor Norman Owen, leader of the Liberal Democrat group on Salford City Council challenged the "YES" camp to a public debate.
Councillor Owen was joined by leader of Salford City Council (and leader of the Salford Labour group), Councillor John Merry on the "NO" side whilst Geoffrey Berg and Stephen Morris of the English Democrats spoke for the "YES" camp, who were bizarrely directed in what to say (and who should say it) by Michael Moulding of the Community Action Party.
Whilst I have not been involved in local politics as long as Councillor's Owen and Merry, in all my years I have never witnessed such a spectacle. Fortunate, to ask the second question, I quizzed Mr Berg on his bold claim that an elected mayor would "halve or more than halve Salford's Council tax". I was intruiged as to how he could promise such a saving, given that Salford has already been through several rounds of efficiency savings and staff redundancies.
What followed was embarrassing. Actually, it would have been very funny if this topic was not so serious (and costing the city hundreds of thousands of pounds it can ill afford).
Mr Berg failed, spectacularly, to answer my question - in fact, he waffled so incoherently I tried to press him to actually give me some indication of how he could halve Salford's council tax. He couldn't. This infuriated many members of the audience who had obviously come with an open mind about the idea of an elected mayor for Salford, and so the probing questions continued long after I had sat back down.
Many bizarre and insulting statements followed from Mr Berg and his English Democrat colleague. From direct personal attacks of Councillor Merry to a dismissal of the hard work local Councillors do in their local communities, the "YES" camp systematically offended virtually everyone in the room. Their "policies" were laughable, at one point claiming that Salford's higher council tax hurt the poorest the hardest, yet failing to realise that the poorest tend to receive council tax benefit, meaning they don't even pay it.
That was not the worst of it.
Asked by one audience member if they had even costed what they proposed, Mr Berg floundered, waffled and comprehensively failed to explain how he could possibly pay for any of what he was proposing. Fortunately, Councillor Owen and Councillor Merry were on hand to give Mr Berg a 101 in local council economics and with that the "YES" camp were finished.
One of the last questions asked what made Mr Berg qualified to speak about the pros and cons of an elected mayor for Salford and apparently the answer was that he had once (briefly) been a Conservative councillor in Bury. My recollection is that was the one question he actually answered.
Local Conservative party councillors, members and activists were conspicuous by their absence at the elected mayor debate last night - no doubt they wanted to distance themselves from Geoffrey Berg (who could blame them).
At 11am today, Liberal Democrat Councillor Owen will debate with Geoffrey Berg on Salford City Radio (94.4FM). If you live within the reception area, I urge you to listen in. You can also listen on-line at http://www.salfordcityradio.org
Related Links
Original blog post at Steve Middleton's blog click here
Salford City Radio click here
Video: Mayoral shambles click here
Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) 20th December 2011
Thats good :) |
Comment by SteveM ( member ) 20th December 2011
It hadn't been published anywhere - I wanted to make sure EVERYONE knew when it was. |
Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) 19th December 2011
The date of the referendum Steve has been known for some weeks now I think from the full council meeting dated the 16th November. |
Comment by SteveM ( member ) 19th December 2011
Date for referendum vote confirmed this afternoon by Salford City Council as Thursday 26th January 2012 |
Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) 17th December 2011
I know its a first and second choice but not sure about third but will check it out. Even so statistically many mayors on this electoral system are from outside the main three parties. |
Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) 17th December 2011
A supplementary voting system for a directly-elected mayor is the best chance to get rid of Labour. Yes they will be favourites......no doubt but this is the best chance we have ! |
Comment by SteveM ( member ) 17th December 2011
Michael, I'm pretty sure the electoral system for Salford's referendum mayor will be the supplementary vote system, with voters only being able to vote for a 1st and 2nd preference (choice). There will be no 3rd choice. |
Comment by markinM44 ( member ) 17th December 2011
Steve when this mayoral election happens it will change nothing as the person elected is more than likely to be another piece of Labour deadwood. Until the electorate wake up and start to match their expectations with the person they vote for Salford is doomed walk the same path time and time again.
I agree that there are a handful of proactive councillors in Salford but they unable to achieve anything due to Labour being able to bulldoze everything through, I firmly believe that some of the labour councillors shut not hold their position as they are inadequate in so many ways and are "Not fit for purpose" however the usual phrase involving the words red, sheep, rosette etc come into play. |
Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) 17th December 2011
We have already said that the vast majority of the savings will be made from the regeneration budget. Regeneration of the city will be reduced to limit the impact on local communities and any future regeneration will be about preserving Salford's heritage, keeping communities together and equalising spending where all wards benefit. |
Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) 17th December 2011
Where everyone has failed so far we are trying our very best to bring about change. In the event of a YES vote Merry will go. He will not be selected as a mayoral candidate and the reason ? because a YES vote would be telling factor in his leadership in Salford. Also, the ruling labour group will never forgive him for losing a referendum. In the event of a YES vote there will be Mayoral elections. Labour may win. But to win they can no longer rely on a vote of around 38 % to do so. It is a supplementary voting system. 1st, 2nd, 3rd choices are considered. There is no victor until someone achieves 50% of the votes cast. All mayors to date, a a significant percentage go to others other than the main parties. This shows that political strangleholds can be broken. I agree with Steve's comments about past and future performances. I did feel that your comments although your colleagues were not, were very genuine in the meeting. Its such a shame that the Lib Dems are in the place they are in Salford. Rick Houlton is not a member of the Community Action Party. In Salford I am the lead organiser and we are working very hard to bring about change. WE have decided to put political idealogy aside and work with the English Democrats for the betterment of Salford. A directly-elected mayor will do this. 168,000 voters either vote them in and if they fail vote them out. Its that simple. We can cut council tax by 50%. A strong mayor can do that. In the event a mayor emerges from The Mayoral Alliance, if we fail to deliver on our promise you vote us out. You can be assured we will not fail. We will have the guts and the courage to stand up to the council to ensure that this is done. |
Comment by SteveM ( member ) 17th December 2011
I applaud Michael for the conviction of his beliefs, but just saying "it can be done" (halving council tax) over and over again, without saying how it can be done makes for a tiring argument to say the least!
Mark, I agree with you that some councillors in Salford do not work hard for their communities or do what they were elected to do (former CAP now Independent Councillor Houlton is a case in point) - but I happen to know many councillors from all three major parties who work really hard for their wards. In fact, Martin O'Neil (Independent) is also a very good councillor - I may disagree with his politics, but I still think he is a good councillor.
Michael, the opposition in Salford is small, not weak. In many respects I wish CAP well, I hope they can defeat poor councillors (of any party) where we cannot, but face facts, in Swinton South CAP face an impossible battle whilst Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem and Green are so popular there.
Local election talk aside, let's try and stick to the point of the blog post above - the elected mayor debate. Prophesing over what might happen in elections is a bit like betting on horses (which I don't do) or investing in the stock market (which I do), you can look at past performance, but it's not an indication of future performance. |
Comment by markinM44 ( member ) 17th December 2011
It is because there is nothing positive to say about Labour, Conservative, Libdem or any other also rans in Salford. Mostly the councillors in Salford are so full of their own self importance they have forgotten what they are employed to do. You will only get rid of John Merry should his cohorts try to stab him in the back, other than that he is there until he decides to leave. Apathetic voting combined with 10>15% labour hardcore voters and he is always going to laugh at everyone who tries. |
Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) 17th December 2011
I agree that to defeat Labour will take a moumental task but I know from my own experience that they can be beaten. But at present the opposition in the city is weak. To see the Lib Dem leader defend the Labour leader and I quote "Salford does not need fixing" is completely laughable. The proposal of a directly elected mayor is not to circumvent the electoral process. It enhances it. A mayor is elected by the supplementary vote system where no-one wins until they reach 50% of the votes cast. This is more democratic. The Leader of the council is unelected where a mayor will be elected by 168,000 voters. This is more democratic. AS for the budget. This can be set by the mayor. Any mayor would ensure its legal. Millions wasted year on year on pet projects like the pink ice rink that was, proms in the park, 3 BBC programmes, the demolition of the Langworthy hotel altogether £2 millions in themselves. We had the riots, outer townships neglected, Salford's heritage destroyed and whole communities ripped apart in the name of regeneration. Not to mention the Chapel St FIASCO. Lib Dems have not been there for the people when it mattered most which partly explains why this Council is in the mess its in. Ineffective opposition like I said. We would cut council tax in half. Preserve Salford's heritage. Retain existing communities and equalise spending throughout the whole city just to name a few. |
Comment by SteveM ( member ) 17th December 2011
Mark, I'm sorry you think this is funny - far from it, this is deadly serious. We are talking about spending more of the council's money it can ill afford to waste on pet projects by those few who feel that it's "unfair" other parties get all the votes. You know what, I hate the fact that Labour have trounced us in the last elections - but that does not mean I look for ways to circumvent the electoral process.
Michael makes points without mentioning (or maybe understanding) the facts. It was impossible to set a budget last year as Labour refused us access to key documents we would have needed to come up with a legal budget (yes, before an opposition budget can be put before the council, it must be passed as legal by the council officers).
It is stupid to make statements like "Libdem is dead" or "(your) party will no longer be part of Salford politics.." before the local election vote has even taken place. I am not a clairvoyant, so unless you have a crystal ball why don't you start saying positive things about yourselves? Is it because there is nothing positive to say about CAP or Independents in Salford? I think so. |
Comment by markinM44 ( member ) 17th December 2011
This is so funny! You are squabbling over control of a council of which none of you will gain control as Labour have sufficient sheep in the for of student/benefit/hereditary vote to keep them in power for years. @Steve Middleton you are on a lost cause as Libdem is dead, all the 2010 promises failed to appear and you have lost the faith of your few remaining voters, the matter of Roger "The Dogma" Jones and Rick is old history as Irlam would have voted for anyone rather than Jones just to kill the c-charge. Roger is very quiet now as he needs to remain in council to top up his pension so he will not take any more chances.
I really do wish you would all grow up and realise that council is about managing the city for the people who live there and not acting like some village squire "Roger is a good example" and provide the things that are required. |
Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) 17th December 2011
The reality is a vacuum has been created in Salford because of very weak oppoisition in the city. So whilst as you will see your party goes backwards our party is going forward and in time will gain seats where party will no longer be part of Salford politics where it matters. That has to be a reflection of your leadership within your party. Your abstained on last years budget and Cllr Owen had to apologise. The real reason is that the skills your party did have in the former Cllr O'Neal have been lost and therefore you were unable to understand any proposals put forward. Like I have said weak opposition. |
Comment by SteveM ( member ) 17th December 2011
I fail to see what the local elections in May 2012 have to do with the elected mayor referendum? The Lib Dems in Salford have opposed Labour's terrible management of Salford City Council and tried to engage with them (for example, with last year's budget) but were rebuffed. We agree with Labour on this one, single issue - and this issue alone. Lib Dems have worked hard in Salford's communities and continue to do so, despite disappointing results at the ballot box. Your attempts to circumvent the ballot box with this elected mayor charade show that CAP are no longer wanted in Salford. The people were fooled once by CAP's Mr Houlton, they re-elected Roger Jones at their first opportunity. I take offence at your calling my blog report "inaccurate" - we both have differing opinions on how the meeting went. I have not called your account of events inaccurate, even though I disagree with what you wrote. Have the courtesy to respect my right to a point of view, even if it doesn't align with yours. |
Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) 17th December 2011
I have written a blog and you have commented on it so do not intend to repeat myself here Steve. Your view of the meeting is inaccurate. It was a stitch-up and we knew it days before we attended as I told you all. You had a hollow victory in the meeting but the political consequences for your party is in MAY 2012 when you are wiped off the political map in Salford. Opposition ? Does your party know the meaning of the word ? |
Comment by SteveM ( member ) 17th December 2011
I assume "yestomayor" is Michael Moulding (you did not sign your comment with your actual name, so forgive me if I had mis-identified you). My dad always used to say, if (they) have nothing good to say about themselves, they criticise the opposition. You've proven his argument with your comment below, attacking Councillors Owen and Merry.
I am certainly no apologist for Labour and Cllr Merry in particular, most people involved in local politics in Salford will know that John Merry and I have had many disagreements over policy and I think this is the only issue I can remember in recent years we have been in near-total agreement on. Your comment about it not being a public meeting is in error - yes, there were many Labour activists and councillors in the room, far outnumbering other parties or non-political members. As for the Liberal Democrats, excluding Councillor Owen I counted 3 Liberal Democrat members (including myself) and 1 other Salford Lib Dem Councillor. That's hardly hijacking.
Michael, I'm sorry you were denied a place on the panel - I would have been happy to debate you. But accept the fact, you selected Mr Berg and Stephen Morris to be on the panel - your attempts to direct them from the front row was embarrasing.
If you would like to use this comment thread (or my blog where this post was originally published) to indicate EXACTLY how you would cut Salford's council tax by 50% go ahead. I could not vote for your proposal of an elected mayor on the basis of "your good word" that you promise it is "fully tested". If it was, you would have already had it tested. So come on Michael, explain it here. How EXACTLY would your alliance candidate cut Salford's council tax by 50% if elected? |
Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) 16th December 2011
Mr Middleton - The invitation that was made to The Mayoral Alliance to attend the public meeting we thought was made in good faith. On that basis we agreed to attend. We then received information that the public meeting was not a public meeting at all. It was hijacked by Labour & Lib Dem activists and councillors making up some 90% of the audience. The meeting descended into a farce as I predicted to my colleagues prior to the meeting because the Labour Party had every intention of turning it into one. Knowing this we still attended and as you know I stood up early in the meeting to confront you all on your ridiculous and pathetic tactics. You also know that I was not on the panel and therefore I was not able to explain as I wanted to as to how a reduction in council tax by 50% could be achieved. I am not going to explain it to you on here but in the event of a YES vote on the 26th January, you can be assured that our proposals will be fully tested. As to you Lib Dem leader Councillor Owen. You really are over-egging his performance. It was weak, bambling and clearly is well past his sell-by date in relation to his political activities. Its no wonder your party is down to 3 seats on Salford Council and in 2012 in all likelihood will be wiped off the political map in Salford altogether. And why am I not surprised ? The final nail in the coffin for your party in Salford is the spectacle of your party leader sitting side by side with the Leader of Salford City council Cllr John Merry and defending his performance and that of the council. Political suicide and political naivity in full view of the Salford public. Goodbye Cllr owen and goodbye Liberal Democrats in Salford. |
Comment by Salford and Proud ( member ) 15th December 2011
What a performance last night by Geoffrey Berg, the man could not answer a single valid question by the audience, and why was Michael Moulding telling him to be quiet at awkward moments? the puppet controlling the master. And if anybody listened to Salford City Radio this morning will know, Norman Owen shredded him and rightly so. Let us face the truth the Yes campaign is a dead duck in the water. Keep up the good Geoffrey. |
Comment by jerry ( member ) 15th December 2011
A proper pantomime and no mistake. Is this the death of the YES campaign? A shame if so cos it really is a good idea, just hijacked by CAP and this oddball Berg |
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