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Posted by EnglishDemocratsNW on 16th December 2011 at 10:15 PM

Salford Mayoral Debate

A view of the Mayoral debate as seen from the English Democrats.

The English Democrats have been campaigning up and down the country for directly elected Mayors, it was the English Democrats who started the campaign in Salford (can be found on the internet). I as North West Chairman had previously worked with Mr Berg on the successful Anti-Congestion charge campaign in Greater Manchester and with Mr Berg believing in the same Mayoral system we agreed to work together once again and he took the lead as petition organiser, he successfully got the signatures required for the referendum whilst I organised activities in other areas for my party.
The Mayoral Alliance took up an invitation to attend a debate over the Mayoral referendum to be organised by the Lib Dem Leader Norman Owen (Lib Dem group being him and 2 mates) on 14th December, we were already aware through our researchers that this was going to be a Labour party meeting which had been rearranged from their usual location. This didn’t phase us, we still took up the challenge and attended, Labour came with their usual professional hecklers to attack Mr Bergs proposals to cut Salford Council tax in Half (although highly educated and very astute on financial issues he is not a good public speaker and this was shown by the Labour hecklers who wouldn’t allow him to finish answering questions). I myself was not phased as I quoted actual facts, figures and policies of their own party back at them, their own waste of tax payers money on frivolities whilst Salford languished as one of the most deprived areas in the country (even after 13 yrs of a Labour Government) and at times you could hear a pin drop. When they tried to heckle that they were “Lies” I just asked them to “Google it” or referred to the Labour party campaign document that we had as proof, they couldn’t answer. Over the cost of the referendum Cllr Merry came out with another figure, his 5th so far ranging from £100k to £400k, Cllr Merry even admitted to have “Experience in referendums with the one in May” he also has experience of organising a referendum from the Congestion Charge referendum but instead makes up figures to try and scare the voters adding another false accusation that we would target elderly care when we have publically stated we would protect essential front line services.
Cllr Merry stated that M Berg who owns up to 17 business properties in Salford and is a Salford tax payer that he had “No connection with Salford what so ever” Cllr Merry continued “as not experienced the services of Salford” as you can read this is a blatant “lie” from Cllr Merry.
Cllr Merry has previously made aspersions that the BNP are part of the Mayoral Alliance just because they support an Elected Mayor, the Alliance does not include the BNP, it also doesn’t include the Tory’s or Hazel Blears and Babara Keeley the Labour MPs for Salford who also support directly elected Mayors, the Alliance is the English Democrats, Community Action Party and some independents.
We want the 168,000 voters of Salford to choose who they want as a directly elected Mayor and leader of the Council, they either succeed and get re-elected or fail and get voted out, they will not have a safe seat and can no longer look at it as a “Job for life”, if they make a promise to you the voter and they don’t stick to it then 168,000 will have the chance to vote them out (obviously keeping promises may limit the Lib Dem participation for office)
Cllr Antrobus made a comment about regeneration in his ward of Swinton North, he was soon put in his place by a Swinton North resident who said “You’ve done nothing for years” “It’s a disgrace”. Cllr Antrobus was the Cllr who tripped and broke his ankle on an ungritted pavement whilst in charge of Highways and gritting.
Michael Moulding of the Community Action party who is targeting his Swinton North ward to oust Cll Antrobus wasn’t on the panel but had to correct the Labour Cllrs on a number of issues when the Labour group started to give out false information when attacking his party.
A tactic of deriding and misinformation by the Labour activists was planned as published in their campaign strategy document.
Stephen Morris
North West Chairman
National Operation Director
English Democrats

Comment by EnglishDemocratsNW ( member ) ^{11th January 2012}
The Mayoral Alliance of the English Democrats and Community Action Party walked the streets speaking to residents about how a new form of Council Governance could change the city for the better. The previous Labour Government (which Hazel Blears MP called Wicked and Malicious in 2010) wanted to bring direct accountability to our Council leaders, Hazel Blears when Government Community Secretary said “I am keen to see more elected mayors. The public want to see a person they have voted for and can hold to account.” “We need strong political leadership for our cities, which is why I support directly-elected mayors and want to see more of them in the future. People want to see an accountable, visible figure in charge. Business needs to know who to talk to. Cities need Mayors to compete internationally.”(from Manchester Evening News) Even Labour MP Barbara Keeley is quoted as saying “Elected Mayors can offer highly effective local leadership - which is why Labour introduced the model.” (from www.barbarakeeley.co.uk) Let’s look at the reasons Salford Labour use to try and get people to vote “NO”: 1) This is an American style Mayor – This is completely untrue as the rules on what an Elected Mayor of an English City can do are decided by the British Parliament, whilst in the US this is done by the U.S. Government. The other point being that no one has a monopoly on Democratic Accountability of our Leaders. 2) Salford Labour also say “When you cast your vote at local elections, you make a choice about who should represent you and thus what you council tax should be spent on. This right will be removed if a referendum to impose a directly elected Mayor is successful” This is once again a false statement from Labour, you continue to have local elections to choose your local councillor however with an elected Mayor you also get to choose the Council leader, something you don’t have at present. 3) Salford Labour say that it is to much power in the hands of one person, however this power was given to them by a Labour Government, it is however very hypocritical of them to say a Mayor covering 1 Council has to much power whilst supporting a Mayor for Greater Manchester who would control 10 Councils. 4) What about Stoke who recently changed back to the old style of Council Governance, interestingly Salford Labour fail to mention that the last Mayor of Stoke was arrested on corruption charges and was one of the reasons people lost confidence in that system and wanted to change. 5) What about Doncaster, Salford Labour once again fail to mention the full facts to you, yes the audit commission did go in but it is what they said about the Councillors - “Councilors were described as “venomous, vicious and vindictive” and responsible for widespread “bullying and harassment” of council officers” The Commission condemned councilors for putting their “hatred of the mayor” before their responsibilities to local people and electors. The result has been poor schooling, poor housing, high crime and poor health and poor education. For instance, many local adults in the employment were too unhealthy and/or unskilled to find new jobs, said the Commission.” This was about Councilors’ and not the Mayor for the failings. 6) In their recent leaflet they say that the Mayor could “Ignore the wishes of a majority of the councillors you have elected” but in the same paragraph state” The Mayor could continue ruling – unless a two thirds majority of the council voted against the Mayors policies” This paragraph contradicts itself on a massive scale and cancel’s itself out. 7) Last year Cllr Merry would have only needed approx 22 votes to become Leader of the Council, we believe this is not Democratic or fair to the people of Salford, as long as he keeps those few people happy he will stay as leader. We want the approx 168,000 voters of Salford to have the chance to choose who they want as the leader of the Council, this is truly giving a voice to the people and an elected Mayor would have to keep the majority of those 168,000 voters happy or be voted out by them 8) Why are Salford Labour so set against a more Democratic system when other Labour Councils have changed to the new system, let’s look at the facts at who it affects, Cllr Merry is fighting for his position along with his colleagues who hold council portfolios, each person could lose 10s of thousands of pounds of tax payers money if an elected Mayor was chosen. They only have their own interests at heart and not that of the people, just like the councillors in Doncaster. 9) What about the cost, Cllr Merry started with £100k them went to £150k then £200k then £250k then £400k then £350k, bearing in mind he recently admitted to dealing with the A.V. referendum you would have thought he would have had a better idea of the true costs, what he attempts to do is scaremonger you the voter saying services to the elderly will be cut, whilst Cllr Merry himself cuts those services. Is this type of accounting why Salford is nearly £600million in debt? 10) An Elected Mayor will get rid of the impartial ceremonial Mayor – There is nothing impartial about a ceremonial Mayor who is chosen from Labour Councillors, this is just another perk for another colleague. 11) Salford has been Labour since 1973, through Tory, Labour and now coalition governments and Salford is still listed as one of the most deprived areas in the country, its crime figures in all but one section consistently remain higher than the national average, after such a long time surely a more Democratic and accountable leader is needed to steer the City from this disastrous Labour rule. 12) Lastly -Do not forget that Salford Labour fully supported the Congestion Charge Tax being imposed on Salford stating that they knew what was best for Salford – However Salford had the largest no vote out of all the 10 Greater Manchester Councils proving that Salford Labour are no longer in touch with people’s views. Everybody in the Borough will be able to vote for a person, either standing as an individual or as a Party candidate, who will be personally democratically accountable to all the people of Salford as the Elected Mayor. This method of universal suffrage also establishes a direct bond between every resident with the person who is responsible to all local taxpayers for local services. Additionally a person who gains the most votes locally and becomes the Elected Mayor has received a majority of support from the whole local area and also, importantly a direct mandate to implement the policies they have promised in their election manifesto. Stephen Morris North West Chairman National Operational Director English Democrats

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{26th December 2011}
Mark - you are absolutely right and Steve you could be right too but I actually trust the will of the people. Its called the electorate. Steve- you highlight such other waste correctly by Merry and his team but you dont and your party does not hav any answers to stop it. The sad sight of seeing your party probably and I HOPE NOT wiped off the political map in Salford next May. Seeing the very saad sight of Norman Owen sat side by side next to Merry was just stupidity on his part and will no doubt pay the price of his madness saying on public record "Salford does not need fixing". Opposition ? Your party has clearly lost its way........Any leader, mayor or Tom, Dick or Harry can lose and spend money unnecessarily if given the power too. The big difference to a Leader and a Mayor as you very well know is that a Mayor can be voted out by the people where a Leader cannot be. There is no way a Mayor would spend and waste money as Merry has as Leader and be re-elected by the people. A mayor who wastes moner as Merry has would be voted out by the people. That is the big difference. Even a Labour Mayor would be booted out.

Comment by markinM44 ( member ) ^{24th December 2011}
So Steve you envisage that the Mayor may end up being a recalcitrant dark overlord who actions things without question and spends huge amounts on unnecessary folly projects to feed his or her wants and whims? Not dissimilar to how it is now?

Comment by SteveM ( member ) ^{23rd December 2011}
A bit of an oversimplification by John Merry, some of the "waste" has been documented here and, in particular, on Salford Star's website. The Langworthy Hotel should never have been bought and Cllr Merry is correct when he stated it was NWRDA money that paid for it. Unfortunately, he fails to point out that the "asset" that was put into Salford Council's hands was then allowed to fall into rack and ruin - simply because the council failed to maintain it. The ice rink, in my mind, was an abhorrent waste of money when so many other things needed funding and the "alliance" haven't even mentioned the waste on things like the Life in Salford magazine or the many consultants employed by the council to do the jobs that lead members and other council officers can't seem to do. None of these, though, explain the need for an elected mayor - as an elected mayor would be able to waste the council's money just the same as Cllr Merry and his cabinet can now. In fact, it would be easier for the elected mayor to fund "pet projects" like the ice rink or glossy council magazine as there would be no-one able to object.

Comment by Ex Seadog ( member ) ^{23rd December 2011}
Thanks.

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{23rd December 2011}
Dealt with a number of these so called waste of money before but can do so again . The main thing to realise about the Langworthy Hotel is that it was purchased not by me but by an Inderpendant that was responsible for a budget that came from central government . The price was what the District Valuer thought it was worth. We took the asset when the board was wound up and tried to find a use but there was no viable use so we will utilise the land. In respect of the ice rink we ran not to provide a profit but to put something on for young people during the winter in that it was proven to be successful. In respect of money we spent bringing the BBC in twenty years time people will wonder why there was a few who questioned the wisdom of giving Salford a huge employment opportunity. There were some who questioned why we ever brought the Docks but the area now employs more people than the Docks ever did . If there are others happy to deal with them if you want to email or drop me a line. You may not agree with the decisions but none were a shocking waste of money and if anything it would be easier for a mayor just to follow his own ideas rather than have them scruitinised

Comment by Ex Seadog ( member ) ^{23rd December 2011}
Thanks for your responses guys. My problem still remains... lots of alleged 'losses' have been quoted during this discussion, which on the face of it do appear to be a shocking waste of money. I don't remember seeing any refuting of these figures, or any corrections as to what the real losses on the cases mentioned were. Are these figures correct? If not, what are the actual figures? I repeat, I am a neutral... I just don't know what/who to believe. Perhaps SoL could do a FoI request and tell us? It might quell what for me is the unlikely rumour, that SoL are biased.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{20th December 2011}
Ex\Seadog Cllr Merry as leader of the Council bought a public house on behalf of the Council inc costs for over £410,000. The owner bought it for around £70,000. The Langworthy Hotel in Salford. The Council failed to maintain the building and so now the council are paying even more to have the building demolished. The problem is the Leader of the Council in charge of this mess is unelected ie the people did not elect him. If that happened as Mayor the people can kick you out as you are incompetent. That is the difference. I have tried to make it as simple as possible for you to understand the difference. We could still have a Labour Mayor the difference the people choose in an election not a few councillors behind closed doors ! :)

Comment by SteveM ( member ) ^{20th December 2011}
Ex Seadog, I am a civil servant. I work compressed hours (e.g. 11 hour shifts) therefore I am only at work 4 days out of 7. Does that answer your question? (plus it was persisting down outside when I wrote my comments!)

Comment by Ex Seadog ( member ) ^{20th December 2011}
As a neutral, I am no wiser as to the merits of either argument... I just don't know who to believe. What has struck me is just how much time these 'posters' have spent on SoL. What are their jobs? How do they find the time to keep this futile argument going? What do they do when there isn't a SoL article to discuss??

Comment by SteveM ( member ) ^{20th December 2011}
Right, you've started another article thread to deal with the cost "argument" and I fail to see what any prior disagreement you have with Cllr Merry or Salford City Council has to do with the elected mayor decision placed before the electorate of this city. This discussion need to either return to the YES/NO argument or end.

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{20th December 2011}
And I have said thats not true how clearer can I be than that

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{20th December 2011}
I have said you have given out 5 figures in relation to the referendum which you keep changing. We cannot be any clearer than that. How many postal voters are there in the city of Salford Cllr Merry ?

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{20th December 2011}
You are not justifying my quote you are justifying your statement that I gave a figure of £100k for the combined cost of the referendum and election you claimed I said it why the sudden coyness about producing it

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{20th December 2011}
Cllr Merry you are incorrect. Any further evidence that came into my possession did so after I had made the complaint. This was additional evidence that I knew existed but did not have authorisation to use it until the holders of the evidence allowed me to which meant that I was not able to present to to your council's standards committee. I have received a letter from the council stating clearly that from their perspective the matter is now closed. I am not going to justify your quotes because if you cannot justify your own alleged costs how can I ? LOL In terms of my complaint I have never said I have been mistreated. Stop putting words into my mouth Cllr merry ! For clarity again - The monitoring officer put in place a timescale to present any further evidence that I could not meet. I have additional evidence. But the Council has made it clear to me in writing the matter is now closed.

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{20th December 2011}
Right lets get a few things straight . You claim that you were somehow deprived of the opportunity to submit evidence. Surely you should give the evidence to the public to enable them to judge whether you were given a fair chance. Reality is that you have not got anything so you want to pretend that you have been mistreated . Secondly I am asking you when I have said the combined cost of the referendum plus the mayoral election was £100k . Give us the quote? in the absence of evidence people are entitled to draw conclusions about your behavour not mine.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
So you are confirming that Salford Lib Dems are against a Greater manchester Mayor Steve ? I think thats what you have implied without stating it as fact.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Cllr merry I have no intentions in trying to justify your own comments. You have given out 5 sets of figures 100K, 150K, 200K, 350K, 400K. Maybe you can try to explain the context because it was you that said them ?

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
when it is you that was referred for a possible breach of the code of conduct.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Cllr Merry those answers will be given to The Standards Board for England in the event the matter can be taken to them. It seems rather wrong that as leader of the Council you can interfere in the operations of the Standards Committee in the way you describe but thinking about it you are Leader of the Council so yes it makes sense. They are not independent are they ? They have made their judgement and the matter is closed as far as Salford City Council are concerned.

Comment by SteveM ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
I believe I have already answered that one, Michael! Scroll down to my last comment (8 comments down from this one).

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Would you care to provide the context within which I am alleged to have given the figures

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Nevertheless I want to ensure you were treated fairly so 1) when did you inform the monitoring officer you had additional evidence? 2) how long were you given to produce the evidence? 3) why was it not possible to produce it in that time?

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
What is the position of the Salford Lib Dems on a Greater manchester Mayor considering your colleagues in Manchester want one ? Stephen Morris had technical issues earlier Steve so I commented for him at his request.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Salford & proud - the only person that is collecting a collapsed deck of cards is Cllr Merry ! First £100,00, then £150,000, then £200,000, still losing the mayoral debate the costs increase to £400,000 and finally his fifth figure to date at £350,000. He cannot explain properly why he has changed his mind 5 times and how he has arrived at £350k taking into account the facts as mentioned below. He is simply plucking figures depending what day it is I believe in order to deceive the electorate. I have their campaign strategy document that implies their tactics because they sent it to us. How stupid can you get ? I have every intentions of repeating myself and continue to repeat myself so that as many as possible get to know his tactics of exagerating the costs to dissuade people of the merits of a mayoral system as actually he doesnt seem to have any other arguments other than to attack Mr Berg as you are doing ?

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Cllr merry the Standards Committee of Salford City Council is part of Salford City Council of which you are their leader. Therefore, it is a fact that this committee is not independent of the organisation of which you are the leader as you are trying to portray. The matter is closed from the Council's perspective. I have received written confirmation of that today. I was sent a letter giving me a deadline of the day of the committee and that meant I was unable to provide the evidence.

Comment by Salford and Proud ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
This is great stuff, Mr Moulding you and your party just can not stop digging a bigger hole for yourself can you? the only thing that puzzles me is, why has not Mr Berg joined in this forum, surely he isn't as articulate on a keyboard as he is before an audience. Michael, sterling work in making your house of cards collapse around your ears. Best of luck with the windmill tilting.

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
I too have very little to add other than the fact that I believe I have felt with all the points you have raised . Never mind the attacks on me .,Your appalling attacks on the ordinary men and women of our standards committee and their integrity says it all. I will enquire of the monitoring officer if you were given time to submit further information and I will report back here if you have told the truth . Fair enough?

Comment by SteveM ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
I may have inadvertently replied to Stephen Morris when it was Michael Moulding typing - it's a bit confusing who is who when we have user "yestomayor Salford" posting a message from the English Democrats and "EnglishDemocratsNW" also posting similar replies on this thread. Would it be too much to ask for Michael and Stephen to sign their comments so we know who is who? For clarification, Manchester Lib Dems do not support a mayor for Manchester but do support one for Greater Manchester. There is a difference. Personally, I think Manchester Lib Dems have got this wrong and I won't be supporting a Greater Manchester Mayor any more than I will be supporting elected Police & Crime Commissioners which are being forced on us in November 2012. However, that is a whole other blog & comment thread :-)

Comment by SteveM ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Stephen, you appear to have corrected yourself over the Lib Dems policy for elected mayors - let me state my position (and that of Salford Lib Dems), you can always contact Manchester Lib Dems if you are confused as to what they exactly support, as I do not and cannot speak for them. I do not support an elected mayor for Salford nor an elected mayor for Greater Manchester. That thinking is in-line with Lib Dem policy, although if it was not, that would not sway my belief. Contrary to what you might believe, I do not agree with absolutely everything said by all Liberal Democrats - anyone who said that about their own party would either be insane or just plain liars.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Cllr Merry the Standards Committee of Salford Council is one of your committee's which you are their leader. I also informed the monitoring officer that I had further evidence which i was unable to present. The committee is not independent as you are trying to portray it to be. I have nothing more to say on the matter other than what I have said below. I believe you are trying to deceive the electorate Cllr Merry. You are trying to do this because your cushy number at the town hall is at risk. A leader of the Council should not be trying to deceive the electorate he is suppose to be serving. You must act with integrity at all times. You still have not on here explained how you have arrived at £350,000 your latest and fifth figure on the costs by answering and taking into account the facts below that a local election at a cost of £200,000 would be held on the same day. £100,000, £150,000, £200,000, £400,000 and now £350,000 how have you arrived at this figure this time ?

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
You clearly do not understand that the standards Committee is for the most part comprised of members of the public rather than councillors are you accusing them of bias . In which case I would suggest that the Chair of the Committee ought to be contacted so that he can have a chance to refute the allegation . I of course have little redress about your behavour but thats the price of democracy

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
The Standards Committee of Salford Council are not independant Cllr Merry. It is one of your committee's at the Council of which you are their Leader. The Standards Board for England are independant as it is a separate organisation. it was the Standards Committee of your council which you are leader that rejected my complaint. Like I have said I have further evidence which I wrote to your monitoring officer about but he put in place timescales to present that evidence which I could not comply with. As the matter is closed from the Council's perspective I intend to contact the Independent Standards Board to see what avenues I have in relation to pursuing this independently of the Council. In relation to local media organisations - The manchester Evening news and The Salford Advertiser are part of Trinity Group newspapers a sister paper being The Daily Mirror. They support the Labour party. In relation to Salfordonline I know for a fact a reporter that part written the Shambles article about the meeting he is a member of your party too ! These are facts Councillor Merry not allegations.

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
And I may believe you are engaged in a massive con trick with your budget proposals but this is hardly going to take the debate forward. Perhaps you might care to reflect on why you believe everyone who disagrees with you is biased or a puppet. The local media does not accept your view of events so they are puppets . The inderpendant standards board the majority of whom are inderpendant reject your views so they are biased .The public would rather hear the arguments rather than you simply accusing the entire world of bad faith.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
The reality is Cllr Merry we debated the issues of the electoral mayor system and can continue to do so. The costs associated to the referendum nomatter how much you exagerate the costs are not relevant to the merits of a system ? It is your party that is so obsessed about the costs of the referendum that you dont even have relevant sound arguments/basis to support your stance Cllr Merry only to deride and use dirty tactics ?

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Message from Stephen Morris (English Democrats) Although the Lib Dems in Manchester are against a democratically directly elected Mayor for Manchester they are in fact in favour of an elected Mayor for Greater Manchester who will control all the 10 authorities - This would take decision making even further away from the council and further away from the people, which must be against the Lib Dem manifesto.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
I am not confused about the fact that I believe you are trying to deceive the electorate Cllr merry. The Standards Committee of Salford Council are NOT independant at all. Can you be honest about this and inform everyone who sits on the committee and the composition ? How many Labour, Tory etc. I have further evidence which I was unable to present to the committee. However, as the matter is closed from Salford City Council's point of view then I will be contacting the Standards Board to seek their advise and yes they are independant not the Standards Committee of Salford Council who threw out my complaint but no surprise there then is there Cllr Merry ?

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Actually I was trying to be kind and describe your confusion but you dont need to take my word for it. You did make this allegation to the inderpendant standards board where it was thrown out and deemed I had no case to answer. As for the document you have no secrets there given that even the Tories have greeted your uncosted and unfunded proposal to cut council tax by 50% with derision as have the Greens Lib Dems and Inderpendants on the Council. Shall we now debate the issues or do you want to continue with this smokescreen

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Manchester Lib Dems are on public record as to supporting an elected mayor for Greater manchester Steve. Do you want me to send you the evidence ? Also, I presume the Salford Lib Dems want the same or are you in disagreement with each other ? What is your policy for Greater manchester do you want a Greater manchester mayor ? Party policy please.............I am happy to send you the link if you need reminding Steve !

Comment by SteveM ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Actually, you'll find more local party members against an elected mayor (just do a google search) and it's not "party policy" to support elected mayors (although we do state in our manifesto we'll do all we can to devolve power so that more decisions are made at a local level). Indeed, Manchester Lib Dems are against an elected mayor for Manchester. I feel that our efforts as a party to put the power of local decision making in the hands of local people is totally compatible with my reasons for voting NO to a dictatorial elected mayor, who I believe, would remove decision making from the local communities to Swinton.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Okies Steve I accept your word for that :) but the fact is your party does !!!!

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
when the referendum has been triggered so the costs should not be a factor as to any merits of a system of local government people can choose...........its the price we pay for democracy !

Comment by SteveM ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
For the record, I am not in favour of a Greater Manchester Mayor. I personally believe we don't need another "Boris" in the North West.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
The reality Cllr merry is you have been found out. We have YOUR strategy document to "deride". We have your strategy document to use costs associated with the referendum as a reason to vote NO when the referendum has not been triggered so costs should not be a facotr in a merit or not of a local government system. The problem Cllr merry as I have pointed out that you have been totally inconsistent about the costs. You may say that you have been confused. I do not believe you. I believe that you are deliberately using the costs, exagerating them and using your local media puppets as a Labour propaganda tool to deceive the electorate. What are going to say next week ? £650,000 ????? You have changed your mind 5 times and each time the costs have increased except on the 14th December. Is this not because the forecasted costs by the council of £200,000 have become widely known so you decided to have another bite and increase the costs back to around £350,000 to deceive knowing that your pro-labour local media organisations will print such diatribe ? Steve Middleton - Unfortunately, the Salford Lib Dem party along with your colleagues in Manchester are suffering from a little hypocrisy. "Localism?" say one thing and do another ? You support a Greater Manchester mayor but not a Salford mayor or manchester mayor running services in their own cities ? You support a Greater manchester mayor running services in Salford. What is being local about that ? Your party must believe in the meritis of a mayoral system because why do you support a Greater manchester mayor but not one for our own city where a Salford Mayor would be running Salford services ? Your local policies on these matters completely contradict your localism agenda !

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
I think the confusion may have arisen because I have been asked different questions at different times. For example what was the cost of the referendum on its own or what was the cost of the two combined.

Comment by EnglishDemocratsNW ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Regarding the costs of the referendum and the election, Cllr Merry has come out with 5 different costings 1) 28th July stated £100k 2) 30th July £150k 3) 3rd Sept £200k 4) 10th Nov £400k and 5) 14 Dec £350k. given the first figure was just 2 months after the AV referendum (which he digged Cllr Owen about) and publically stated he was involved with and had “Experience in referendums with the one in May” he also has experience of organising a referendum from the Congestion Charge referendum he still keeps coming out with various figure which up until 14th Dec kept increasing. He has also even seem forget when the AV referendum was conducted, according to Cllr Merry "The figures are based on the costs of the AV referendum held at the same time last year" - Well if he checked his facts he will find the AV referendum was this year, is he trying to confused voters with misinformation yet again?

Comment by SteveM ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
I think Councillor Merry is guilty of being less than clear about the costs, but he has stated (many times), how the cost breaks down. He is also right when he states that the council has figures to which it can base the cost of the referendum following the AV vote earlier in the year. For me, there are three "extra" costs to the council that have been created as a result of the petition. The first is the officer time to verify the 9,000 signatures, the second: the cost of printing & distributing referendum yes/no ballot slips and the third, the extra cost of an additional mayor ballot slip in addition to local election slips. Aside from the cost, what can an elected mayor deliver for Salford? Well, if you believe the "alliance" he/she could lower Salford's council tax "by half or more than half". I think that both the Lib Dems and Labour have shown this promise is unachievable and uncosted by the alliance. They promise little else with their mayor other than an indication they will do away with a fair proportion of local ward councillors. One of the great things about local democracy is that some power is devolved to local people to make local decisions on behalf of their neighbours, I firmly belive an elected mayor would do away with that local decision making and centralise decisions in Swinton at the Civic Centre. A backwards step if you ask me. What qualities would we look for in an elected mayor in Salford? A natural leader is a given, someone with a head for figures and an understanding of how council economics work, someone with experience (at a reasonably high level) of working in local government. For me, this narrows the list to current or recent ex-councillors who have either been leaders or at the very least lead members. Lastly, I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't want to be drawn on individual names of people I would support until after the referendum result. I hope that adds something to the argument "why do we need an elected mayor?" and "what qualities would an elected mayor need?" - interested to hear what others think.

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
I have tried several times to talk about the issues and it is not true that the bulk of the costs are the polling stations. The real issue is the idea that all power should be concentrated in one person for 4 years while the current system allows for an annual vote.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Ex Seadog & Hiram I do apologise for you having to read responses and dialogue between myself and the Leader of Salford City Council, Councillor John Merry but what we are discussing is fundamental to local politics and local people. Whether it be £150,000, £200,000 or any of the other three figures that Councillor Merry has come up with these past few weeks, whilst this amount of money is important there is a bigger and searching question unfortunately about the man leading our council. keep in mind a directly elected mayor would replace Councillor Merry as leader of the council ie a Leader would no longer exist. Readers have rightly asked about the credentials of any mayor. Even now local councillor's in the a code of conduct must act with integrity at all times. This applies to Councillor Merry. The Leader of our council is an unelected Leader of the Council. he was chosen by his councillor colleagues in the Labour Group of councillors on Salford Council. Therefore this man's credentials have not been properly tested. He has not even been elected by the people. We have come across a Labour strategy document written by Councillor Merry's colleague Councillor Derek Antrobus. Because Cllr Merry and his colleagues are fighting for their political lives they are against a directly-elected mayor that would end their stranglehold of this city. This document reveals that the Labour Group have a strategy to deride the merits of a mayoral system and to deride those that initiated the referendum. The document also clearly says that the Labour group will use the costs associated to the referendum to persuade people to vote no even though these costs have already been incurred. ie the referendum is taking place a right given to manchester without someone having to take the trouble to get the thousands of signatures required. Councillor Merry has so far come up with five different sets of figures in relation to the referendum as follows £100,000, £150,000, £200,000, £350,000, £400,000. Pro-Labour media organisation print this diatribe which no doubt may affect the judgement of those that would like a change in system ie they may think the costs even though false may be too much. Councillor Merry is clearly dug himself into a big hole. He says the cost of the referendum and any mayoral election is NOW (fifth figure) £350,000. £200,000 for the referendum and he says £150,000 for a mayoral election. But he says that any local election which is being held on the same day as a Mayoral election in 2012 and Councillor Merry knows this as fact is £200,000. This local election is being held. This is not changing because there are local elections next year anyway. If there is a Mayoral election on the same day as the locals why would this mayoral election cost a further £150,000 as Cllr Merry purports ? It would not because voting booths are open, postal ballots are sent anyway and the same number of staff will be used. The additional costs would be very small. The Labour Group are using a strategy to exagerate costs in order to put people off and vote NO. I have their document that indicates this along with much more about their dirty tactics. It was sent to us by themselves in error. How stupid can you get ? But for me this is about Councillor Merry's integrity. So far 5 sets of figures. Unelected and it seems to me as Leader the one thing he should not be doing is trying to deceive you and any other readers by not being accurate and honest with his information that he provides. If it is proven that he is trying to deceive the electorate I would say that is an abuse and a clear breach of the code of conduct that all councillor's must abide by. Fight for your job yes if you think you are doing a good job but to try and deceive the electorate as leader of our Council ??????? HE SHOULD GO !

Comment by Ex Seadog ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Well said Hiram, I have just wasted five minutes of my life reading this rubbish... I had to read it all to believe how bad it was. You're right, any people putting their names to this pathetic display of childishness cannot possibly be the best to represent us. As a neutral I would ask again... can we have some facts please. I'm sure if the idiot Clarkson were to see this site he'd feel vindicated in his views about Salford.

Comment by Hiram Abiff ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
This purile display of bickering demonstrates all that is wrong with local politics. The lack of reasoned, well informed debate backed by supporting data to enable the neutral to make a choice does much damage to the credibility of all concerned. I think my choice will be 'vote none of the above'...

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
There will be an extra £150k of costs associated with the mayoral election on top of the normal costs of the locals . I have explained this several times. The figures are based on the costs of the AV referendum held at the same time last year . Now seeing you have accused me of deliberately deceiving the electorate I think an apology might be in order but given the nature of your postings which seem to be based on innuendo and personal attacks I won't hold my breath.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Tell us how you have costed the £350,000 figure Cllr merry when the locals are being held anyway at a cost of £200,000 ?

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Cllr Merry by your own words - You say the referendum will cost £200,000. That leaves £150,000 left. I presume you are then saying that the mayoral election will cost £150,000. But the locals are held on the same day. The cost you say £200,000. If both elections are held on the same day why is a Mayoral election going to cost £150,000 when the locals are held on the same day at a cost of £200,000 by your own words !!!!! You disclosed £350,000 Cllr merry because you included the costs associated with the local elections £150,000 and added them costs associated to the referendum to make £350,000 deliberately failing to inform everyone that the locals are held on the same day anyway so the additional costs do not apply. By disclosing this £150,000 we also now believe that the costs associated with the referendum alone have been exagerated by £50,000. You are trying to deceive the electorate cllr Merry are you not ? Its disgraceful way to act. Credentials of an unelected leader of the council - must have the ability to deceive ?

Comment by Joey ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Can I have a straight answer please

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
I think calling someone a liar is quite personal don't you.

Comment by Joey ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Can I have a straight answer please

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
At present I am NOT saying he has lied. I am just trying to clarify his comments made at the meeting about costs his fifth figure to date that he has quoted.

Comment by Joey ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Can I have a straight answer please

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
I made it clear £350k refers to the combined cost of referendum and election . Clearly holding the electon on the same day as the locals means there is some saving but I based the figure on last years calculation of the cost of the AV vote and locals on the same day.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
My comments are not personal attacks Joey. I am in discussion with the Leader of the council and questioning his comments about alleged costs or not associated with the referendum. These are not personal attacks. If Cllr Merry has lied that is not a personal attack it is a fact. Not a nice one addmittedly but nonetheless should we be having a leader of the Council that is prepared to try and decieve the electorate and possibly breach members code of conduct. Any Mayor would be elected by the people and his/her credentials would be presented to the electorate at that time for them to consider which our current leader has not done.

Comment by Joey ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Can we please have some constructive dialogue about, for example, the qualities required to make a good elected Mayor. What exactly does the job entail, does it require the qualities of a chief executive, a commercial background or a political one. Is it realistic to expect someone of the right calibre to risk an existing career for a 4 year elected office? Mr Berg said it was a position for whoever the people of Salford voted for but that was just a cop out answer, how can we vote for the right person if we don’t know what qualities to look for? Please use this forum to inform, not just for personal attacks. Mr Moulding, this is your opportunity to state your case clearly and concisely, if you feel you were denied the opportunity to get your point across at the meeting why not use Salfordonline to communicate to a wider audience here?

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
If the locals cost £200,000 and the referendum £200,000 and the mayoral election is held on the same day as the locals which is already costing £200,000 please explain how you got the figure of £350,000 associated with the referendum as you disclosed last week and is printed on Salfordonline in their report of the meeting ? And forgive me I believe that even their quote from you is incorrect. I will give you that ! Can you clear the confusion for everyone ?

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
The locals will cost £200k that maybe where you are confused

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Carry o you are just revealing yourself in your true colours . I made it clear the mayoral election will cost another £150 k on top of the local election costs . It's there in black and white. Think before you start making wild accusations . Now if you will excuse me I would rather debate with those who don't resort to personal smears

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
The costs associated with the referendum have been exagerated by £50,000. The local elections are being held on the same day as Mayoral elections in the event of a YES vote. The locals have to take place so answer this why has the costs associated with the referendum jumped from £200,000 to £350,000 when the locals are being held on the same day anyway at a cost of £150,000 ? The members code of conduct Cllr Merry where you must act with integrity at all times.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
You see Cllr Merry you as Leader of the Council are trying to deceive the electorate, the very people who you are suppose to be serving but they didnt elect you and cannot get rid of you either ? You have been caught our Cllr Merry. We have the strategy document to deride. Exagerate the costs asspociated with the referendum and trying to confuse the electorate. Shame on you Cllr Merry.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
You not going to answer my questions Cllr Merry and if not why not ?

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
I refer you to my previous answer which seems clear enough

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
Seems little point in debate if everyone who disagrees with you is biased or has a hidden agenda. Personally I think your accusation about Salford Online is beneath contempt but that is a matter for them .

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
You have not answered the question Cllr Merry. Why does a referendum in the city cost £200,000 to hold but a local election £150,000 to hold in the city ? Can you confirm that the council has decided in the event of a YES vote on the 26th Jan that any Mayoral election will be held on the same day as the local elections ?

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
I did not accept that assertion then and do not now . It's quite simple the costs supplied for the referendum on its own is £200k and the two together will according to last year costs be £350k . Far from being contradictory I have been consistent. Now can we have an end to these rather nasty insinuations or is this going to be the tone of your campaign in which case i anticipate the public are not going to be too impressed.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
There was even a Salfordonline reporter present who I know for a fact is a member of your party hence the biased reporting of the event.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
90% of the audience were Labour councillors, activists and party members. WE have copied you the email which we were privileged to receive along with the strategy document which highlights your dirty tricks to "deride".

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
As Stephen Morris reminded you at the meeting when you disclosed your fifth figure regarding the costs associated with a referendum. Can you explain why to have referendum in the city costs £200,000 but to hold a local election costs the city £150,000 ?

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{19th December 2011}
There were Tories Greens Lib dems and neutrals present

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
Are you seriously accusing me of a breach of the members code of conduct. In what way or is this just another attempt at a personal attack

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
The video has provided significant evidence Cllr Merry. Are you aware of the Members Code of Conduct and its principles ?

Comment by EnglishDemocratsNW ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
You may not be aware but language is made up of 7% Words, 38% Tone and 55% Body language so your body language does provide a significant amount of information.

Comment by EnglishDemocratsNW ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
Not many neutrals present as the Swinton Labour group had re-arranged their meeting for the same room as the debate. I have I have put a copy of the Labour party email here to show you once again -"Colleague, Just in case you have not heard there will be a debate in the Salford Suite, Civic Centre on Wednesday 14th December at 7.00 pm between the Leader of the Council (John Merry), the leader of the Lib Dem group (Norman Owen) opposing the referendum and Geoffrey berg and another person in favour. Swinton Members: this replaces this month's ward meeting. To everyone else: please try and attend so as to show the strength of feeling AGAINST the idea of the referendum and an elected myor. Norbert"

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
Nice to know that the English Democrats want to judge my body actions . Prefer to be judged by the neutrals who were present . No doubt you will want to tell yourself how brilliant you were . I do not recognise the picture you paint of the debate nor did people who are normally my political opponents or neutral who were present.

Comment by EnglishDemocratsNW ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
You were fully aware that the debate was being filmed, raised no issues before or during the debate. Only after the debate did go direct from your seat to my wife with your finger wagging and questioning her about the filming. Your body actions showed you were not happy with the way the debate went.

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
No contradiction between courtesy and the rights of the participants not to take part

Comment by EnglishDemocratsNW ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
Cllr Merry you seem to have contradicted yourself again, you state "It is courtesy to inform a meeting" but then say the "The chair would have been within his rights to ask you to stop filming and we would have been within our rights to refuse to go on" If it is only courtesy as you say then the chair could not have stopped the filming of a public debate.

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
The chair would have been within his rights to ask you to stop filming and we would have been within our rights to refuse to go on . There is no right to film an event without the organisers permission but to be perfectly honest I don't care. As to quotes you have used I am not aware of any apart from the odd misrepresentation on this site but you want to make me aware of others ....

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
Cllr Merry I have not said that I want to edit it. In plain English Cllr Merry I am just saying that we are not going to be told by you what we can or cannot do. It was a public meeting in a public arena as you say even though you cancelled a Swinton Labour Party meeting and they all turned up at the debate meeting instead to hijack it. This is not desperate stuff this is fact and we are not in a desperate position. The reality is that all dirty tricks have been initiated from the Labour party. That would suggest that it is yourself that is getting very desperate and we all know why.

Comment by EnglishDemocratsNW ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
Cllr Merry, Thank you for admitting that it is only a matter of courtesy and there for we were within our rights to film the public meeting. We have published actual statements made by yourself during the meeting, if you feel that you did not make these comments then please say so.

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
This is all desperate stuff on your part. It is courtesy to inform a meeting that you would like to video a meeting and to ask if anyone has any objection . The fact that I personally favour streaming of council meetings does not mean it is the council policy and that is what was asked. Mr Mouldings statement that you want to be able to edit it says it all. The fact that I did not object to an unedited copy does imply I was satisfied with my own performance . The fact that Mr Moulding wants to edit it implies he does not want the public to see aspects of the YES performance. Since the debate you have both come up with excuse after excuse and bad mouthed anyone who has challenged your version of events. Put the whole video up for all I care and let people judge but don't put an edited version and claim its the truth

Comment by SteveM ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
Have you got a link?

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
Cllr Merry is fully aware that we were already aware of their hijacking of the meeting as I stood up and confronted them all about it to jeers. Very few ordinary persons attended. The Mayoral Alliance will use the video as we want edited or unedited. No law prevents us from doing this.

Comment by EnglishDemocratsNW ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
Cllr Merry, you were fully aware that the debate was being filmed from the beginning, you only made your feelings known once the debate was over, this in itself tell us a story of how you feel about your performance. You fully support the live streaming of Council meetings(although you originally denied this and we had to remind you of your interview that is on you-tube supporting more live streamings of debates). Given this was a public meeting, in a public building and videoed by a member of the public then it would be interesting to know under what rule you would have refused permission. As for giving an unbiased view, this is quite laughable given the Swinton Labour group had re-arranged their regular meeting - "Colleague, Just in case you have not heard there will be a debate in the Salford Suite, Civic Centre on Wednesday 14th December at 7.00 pm between the Leader of the Council (John Merry), the leader of the Lib Dem group (Norman Owen) opposing the referendum and Geoffrey berg and another person in favour. Swinton Members: this replaces this month's ward meeting. To everyone else: please try and attend so as to show the strength of feeling AGAINST the idea of the referendum and an elected myor. Norbert" As I have stated in the above post, we were fully aware of the Labour groups tactics having also recieved a copy of your party's campaign stategy to "Deride" rather than debate. If I loaded a meeting with our own supporters then I'm sure their views would be the opposite to a room loaded with Labour party members.

Comment by markinM44 ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
@John Merry There should be no question of rights to record such an event, there is an edited version on this site that is slightly biased! It will be interesting for people to witness the somewhat boorish behaviour of you labour party cohorts, peel back the veneer and see what lies underneath!

Comment by John Merry ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
There is no automatic right to video a public meeting without the people there being consulted . As it happened all I requested is that it not be edited to give a biased view . Given the general consensus that we won the debate why should I not want it to be on general release

Comment by markinM44 ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
Why did John Merry feel that he had any right to question the use of the recording? Was it not a public meeting? Always something to hide!!

Comment by EnglishDemocratsNW ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
We currenlty have it on you-tube unedited and will be releasing it shortly.

Comment by EnglishDemocratsNW ( member ) ^{18th December 2011}
My wife has put it on You-tube currently and is being checked by out, it is unedited. Cllr Merry at the end did have words with my wife over the video to question its use. It was also Cllr Antrobus who did the impromptu vote .

Comment by SteveM ( member ) ^{17th December 2011}
Stephen, is it possible for you to upload the entire video (unedited) somewhere? I propose Salford Online, but anywhere - surely this would be good for both sides so a wider audience can see/hear the actual debate. I certainly have no problem with you chopping it at the end when the chair closed the debate (the ridiculous impromptu vote thing was a bit of a shameless act by Labour, I forget which Labour councillor shouted it out).

Comment by EnglishDemocratsNW ( member ) ^{17th December 2011}
As my wife videoed the entire event and just like in the event where I quoted actual facts and figures, I can also provide proof of what was said in the meeting.

Comment by yestomayor Salford ( member ) ^{16th December 2011}
The policy of cutting council tax in half as Mr Berg was explaining is a policy of The Mayoral Alliance which has been fully costed whilst protecting essential front line services.

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